When two adversaries confront one another militarily, they are rarely the only participants. Either side might delegate portions of its war efforts to proxies, for example—a subject that has been covered extensively on the Irregular Warfare Podcast. But there are a wide range of other roles that intermediaries also play. This episode explores those roles.

To do so, hosts Laura Jones and Louis Tobergte are joined by Dr. Michael G. Vickers and Dr. Vladimir Rauta. Dr. Vickers served in the special operations community, as a CIA operations officer, and later as a national security and intelligence community leader. His most recent public service role was as the under secretary of defense for intelligence and he is the author of By All Means Available: Memoirs of a Life in Intelligence, Special Operations, and Strategy. Dr. Rauta is an associate professor at the University of Reading whose research explores the delegation of war to rebels. The episode discusses his recent article in International Security, “Dealers and Brokers in Civil Wars: Why States Delegate Rebel Support to Conduit Countries.”

You can listen to the full episode below, or find it on Apple PodcastsStitcherTuneInSpotify, or your favorite podcast app. Be sure to subscribe so you don’t miss an episode!

Image credit: erwinlux