As it turns out, West Point cadets *do* outrank Army noncommissioned officers (NCOs). Technically.
Even after more than twenty years in uniform, it still surprises me what I don’t know about my own profession, and what I still have to learn from my NCOs. Let me explain:
It’s summertime, and for many cadets in the Army’s ROTC programs and at West Point, that means “Cadet Troop Leader Training” or CTLT.
This is more or less the Army’s summer intern program, where young future officers get hands-on experience as a kind of “third lieutenant,” under the tutelage of a commissioned officer for three or four weeks. This gives cadets going into their final years of pre-commissioning training the opportunity to experience life in an active duty unit. Specifically, it allows them to try their hands at officership, and to get a feel for the kinds of officer/NCO relationships that are essential to the success of our Army.
CTLT happens in all kinds of units, both in the US and OCONUS. As far as I know there are no CTLT positions in combat zones. But short of that, cadets can end up in just about anywhere. While CTLT is a useful and important mentorship and developmental activity, many units see CTLT as a drag, and dealing with cadets as a hassle. Sometimes cadets are relegated to less-meaningful duties, or endure some modicum of hazing as part of the experience.
I was recently in a conversation with a senior noncommissioned officer in an elite US Army unit, when the subject of CTLT came up. I wondered how he, as a senior NCO in a highly specialized unit, felt about having cadets around. I asked if he gave the cadets in his unit a hard time as part of their CTLT experience.
“No, I always salute them and treat them as officers, and I make sure everyone else does too,” he replied in total sincerity. Somewhat surprised by this, and thinking back to my own experiences in CTLT, I asked why he felt that way.
“Because according to the Army, they outrank me, sir.”
I was floored. Everyone knows that the lowest Army private outranks the highest cadet… right? I mean, that certainly seemed to be the case at Airborne School back in the day.
…wrong.
The Evidence:
The NCO referred me to AR 600-20, Army Command Policy, which makes it pretty clear that West Point cadets do, in fact, outrank Army NCOs. This regulation shows that cadets rank after commissioned and warrant officers, but before NCOs. Very interesting. I learned something that day. You’re right, Sergeant, a West Point cadet DOES outrank you. Technically.
OK, fine. That’s what the reg says, but how does that work in practice?
But having learned this, it made me wonder when this would actually matter in any meaningful way. Outside of authorized developmental training events such as CTLT, no NCO is going to allow a cadet to swoop in and take charge of his platoon, squad, or section. So when would a cadet actually “be” in charge?
AR 600-20 again provides the answer:
AR 600-20, Section 2:
2-8. Death, disability, retirement, reassignment, or absence of the commander
a. Commander of Army element.
(1) If a commander of an Army element, other than a commander of a headquarters and headquarters element, dies, becomes disabled, retires, is reassigned, or is temporarily absent, the senior regularly assigned Army Soldier will assume command.
(2) If the commander of a headquarters and headquarters element dies, becomes disabled, retires, is reassigned, or is temporarily absent, the senior regularly assigned Army Soldier of the particular headquarters and headquarters element who performs duties within the element will assume command. For example, if a division headquarters and headquarters company commander is temporarily absent, the executive officer as the senior regularly assigned Army Soldier who performs duties within the headquarters company would assume command and not the division commander.
(3) Senior regularly assigned Army Soldier refers (in order of priority) to officers, WOs, cadets, NCOs, specialists, or privates present for duty unless they are ineligible under paragraphs 2-15 or 2-16. They assume command until relieved by proper authority except as provided in 2-8c. Assumption of command under these conditions is announced per paragraph 2-5. However, the announcement will indicate assumption as acting commander unless designated as permanent by the proper authority. It is not necessary to rescind the announcement designating an acting commander to assume duties of the commander “during the temporary absence of the regularly assigned commander” if the announcement gives the time element involved. A rescinding announcement is required if the temporary assumption of command is for an indefinite period.
_____
The Answer:
Of course, there is another reason to treat West Point and ROTC cadets with respect: they are not going to be cadets forever. The best way to train cadets to be officers that their soldiers will look up to and their NCOs will respect is to treat them the way you want them to act. While it might be fun to haze the new “margarine bar” (he hasn’t even worked his way up to “butter bar” yet), is that really the impression you want him taking with you when he gets commissioned and reports to his first unit?
So yes, a West Point cadet DOES outrank a sergeant. Or a sergeant major for that matter. But only a complete cadidiot would get his or her cadet rank confused with an NCO’s authority and influence.
*This post originally appeard The Havok Journal*
U.S. Army photo by: Mike Strasser/ USMA Public Affairs
Paras 2-9 and 2-10, AR 600-20 further reinforce Scott Faith’s important points here. Practice ought to comport with policy.
My CTLT with D 1/47th IN (1983) was an amazing experience preparing me to enter an Army in transition, and the esprit de corps and commitment to duty extended from CPT Barber to every member of the command, even their temporary members (a USMA Cadet and me), with especially valuable membership from NCOs in the command.
Typo: “mentorship” not “membership”
The cadet would still have to be "Regularly Assigned". How would a cadet be regularly assigned? One might argue that a cadet who is SMP, simultaneous membership program, would be regularly assigned. So this cadet would already be embedded with the staff or command team or shadowing the Platoon Leader, and would most likely have some, albeit limited prior service. Still though, the cadet might be assigned to the unit based on the Modified Table of Organization and Equipment (MTO) to a non cadet billet. In this case he/she is regularly assigned, potentially in an E3, E4, E5, or what have you spot. So there is definitely some need to define regularly assigned. Does the cadet need to be regularly assigned to a Cadet billet?
That same reg AR 600-20, Command Policy specifically states they will be addressed as "Mr./Mrs./Miss/Ms./Cadet" not Sir or Mam. If you salute a cadet, who is not a commissioned officer you would be making the entire "First Salute" ceremony asinine if cadets had been entitled to salutes the entire time.
The authors creative example about an NCO looking at a lugnut and an officer looking at the whole vehicle is nuts (bad humor). NCO's look at big picture constantly, good officers are aware of this and cultivate this. If you run a command climate where you relegate your NCOs to small picture things, you will be a small picture unit and your good NCOs will find their way out of your unit and you will be left with small picture, tunnel vision type folks such as those that you describe.
Fun article.
Correction – The lugnut comment was in reference to comment 11 from Toga, not the author. Sorry, I wrote that on the go from a mobile device, and can't edit it…
This rank business is a technicality of the rank system. It would be a very foolish cadet who started issuing orders to a senior sergeant. The rank of a cadet is for protocol issues alone such as where to stand in a receiving line or where to sit at a formal dinner. When a cadet has to leave the USAFA before graduation, he is assigned to a reserve unit with the rank of Airman 2C.
Is the cadet attached or assigned a leadership position? What is the TO&E and where is the cadet slotted? Does the cadet have offiCial orders? Has the. Adept been officially assigned a position in the chain of command? Sorry- from a legal perspective there is a lot not discussed.
The cadet only holds E-6 equivalency. The cadet does not outrank a senior NCO E7 or above. I request you review 600-20again. Only the pay grade the cadet holds. The cadet never will outrank a sergeant first class, master sergeant first sergeant sergeant major etc. Whoever came up with this interpretation needs to review deeper.
Somebody at USMA needs to ensure cadets are informed about their precedence in the order of ranks and teach them that while they are at AOT/CLTC, etc. that “When in Charge, Be in Charge” applies. If cadets, during this valuable leadership experience, are not given the chance to act as lieutenants and acting platoon leaders, then the whole CLTC program should be scrapped.
I’ve been on both sides of the fence. Your comment reeks of arrogance. The smart LT listens to his/her NCO and seeks counsel from him/her.
NCOs are the backbone of the Army and run the Army day to day (as opposed to commanding it). I say this as a retired officer. I pray that you are only a LT yourself. Of course there is a certain type of officer who fails to get it. For some reason a lot of angry major S3 types fall into this category.
Oh please. Get off your high horse. I’m a Senior WO and I can personally attest to the height of arrogance the NCO Corps exercises today. Too many Cadets are treated like children by unprofessional NCOs who fail to realize that they are only alienating their future rather and or senior rather. This author wrote an excellent piece. Give credit where it’s due and stop making it about you.
Appreciate your reply. Tired of all the "barracks lawyers" looking for some sort of designated, assigned, or "official" trappings of respect; absent the need to EARN that respect. When I was an O-3, I regularly saluted SGM's first depending on who saw whom first and the nature of the encounter. When an NCO saluted me, I didn't just wave my hand at my cover to dismiss the salute, but "locked up" a little myself, acknowledged him with eye contact, and responded to any greeting. When I was a 2LT, I always took the fact that Vietnam vets 4-10 years older than I was were saluting me as an obligation to do my best to earn that salute.
Give credit? The information is incorrect and contradictory of practices in every branch of service. The author has a difficult time with his interpretation skills which leaves much to be desired. If this is the type of “leadership” that lends itself to fluff like this, I say to Hell with it.
I have heard the saying "Stop being an arrogant officer?" come from many NCO's who claim that "NCO's are the backbone of the Army". While being true you must also realize there is a need for Commissioned Officers as well as Non Commissioned Officers. Not only do NCO's get shit on by their LT's but sometimes the LT is getting shit on by his Company Commander. It goes both ways and without Officers the Army would surely still fall apart. Each job is as important as the rest. Officers and NCO's must realize alike that, they way you treat your future Officers (NCO's case) and the way you treat your subordinates (Officers case) will dictate how the military can and will be run in the future. Share mutual respect and work together is the name of the game. I would argue that the NCO/CO rivalries have started as a result of more modern times as compared to past wars and generations and honestly it should stop.
In the 80s I was an instructor at the ANCOC Leadership School. Two of many subjects I taught E-6 and E-7 were Military Customs and Courtesy, and Uniform. This information was not covered or taught.
No idea if it is being taught now at BNCOC or ANCOC. It should be.
Wonder if each Military Academy Of other branches has the same rule/regulation authority.???
I can't speak for the Air Force, but the Navy certainly does. Mids rank between W-1 and W-2 last time I had occasion to check.
AR 600-25, Para 1.5(b)
"b. All Army personnel in uniform are required to salute when they meet and recognize persons entitled to the salute.
Salutes will be exchanged between officers (commissioned and warrant) and enlisted personnel, and with personnel of
the Armed Forces of the United States (Army, Navy, Air Force, Marine Corps, Coast Guard), the commissioned corps
of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, and the commissioned corps of the Public Health Service
entitled to the salute."
Cadets are not commissioned nor do they possess a warrant. Per the order, they are not entitled to a salute.
Salute were means of communication.
Knights lifted their helmet to recognize they friends from enemy.
It is a chain of command situation. I always say Semper Fi or Airborne when I return salute
Good answer. They are legally considered E-5 equivalent, and aren't Branch qualified.
Wrong. They are at the pay grade of E-5 but the rank of Cadet and do outrank all NCOs.
I'm popping into the conversation late, but I completely agree (not that you can argue with the regs). Saluting a cadet completely invalidates the First Salute ceremony when they commission. They clearly outrank privates and are often assigned to leadership roles, but they aren't yet commissioned.
Thank You Warren H.
I was wondering if I would have to make mention of the fact that until they are COMMISSIONED Officers, they will remain nothing more than a glorified E-5 NCO pay scale while in USMA.
Now, based on personal experience, I cannot say I was comfortable at all with the USMA grad who came into Iraq (2004-06). Through conversations, we get better LT's coming out of ROTC or NCO's newly converted to O grade…..
I agree totally with enlisted not saluting a cadet. I spent 3 years as a MSG and never saluted a cadet.
As an MP Spec. 4 I once had a young cadet who was walking with his girlfriend , loudly address me saying , you do not salute Officers ? I answered honestly saying that I do not believe that I am supposed to render him a salute but that I am willing to accompany him to Military Police HQ to find out . He declined .
First, what an insult to a SNCO that instead of a 1SG with 10 plus years of experience leading soldiers in the absence of officers A Cadet would be next in succession. How dare enlisted swine preside over a command position? Are we really saying an NCO could not do that?
Secondly, just because of this outdated regulation (considering no cadets are assigned to any deployed units) requires no customs or courtesy obligation from enlisted soldiers or officers. Seriously get over yourselves West Point you produce officers like any other university and they are no better or worse than anyone else. You earn everything in the Army. No commission? No salute. Thanks for your disgustingly pointless article. Sir.
West Point grads are elite and you know it
Ask any enlisted person and they will tell you that westpointers are arrogant and on need of a lot of training. A lot of people have been killed in combat because of the arrogance of westpointers
Elite only in their mind. The smart ones find a good NCO to mentor them.
I respect ALL Personnel of the US ARMED FORCES and Civilians appointed over me. I did 24 years in the ARMY and have been led by West Pointers! I respect them all but I just wonder what makes them "Elite" as you say? Look at any Command where a COL thru Gen and you will see a whole lot of Soldiers both Officers and NCOs running and doing everything to make that command function! Without these people, "How do you become "ELite"!
First off the reg says regularly assigned personnel, which the Cadets are not. They are TDY for a few weeks therefore their authority only extends to West Point. No Salute should be required or rendered.
The only regularly assigned cadets are in the national guard or reserves as a SMP Cadet.
You are absolutely wrong. Cadets are Officers period and should be rendered the appropriate courtesy. You probably don’t salute WOs either because you think they’re beneath you as well. Unprofessional.
Cadets are not officers.
CDT military IDs show geneva convention status 3.
They're inchoate officers. When contracted you take the officer version of the oath as well.
They aren't commissioned though, depending on the service, they are somewhere around a W1.
Cadets are never saluted. Period. They aren't commissioned yet, and as pointed out above, they are considered equivalent to an E-5. So you are incorrect when you say that Cadets outrank me. Plus, it's not typically possible for a Cadet to be a " regularly assigned member" of any unit other than their school unit. By reg,they can't command or lead troops in the field. They aren't " in the pipeline" yet regarding training , experience or anything else yet. They don't even have a MOS/Branch assignment or anything else at this point. Technically, they aren't even qualified to fulfill a team leader slot. Read the regs CAREFULLY people, when you want to use them to make a point.
Actually, cadets do fill positions in the National Guard in the Simultaneous Membership Program and can be assigned to an O-2 slot for a period of years. No, they won't deploy in that position, but they can and do attend annual training and NTC rotations and can act as Platoon Leader.
Cadets salute one another and it is initiated according to cadet rank. And cadets initiate salutes to any commissioned officer. Cadets and NCOs do not salute one another.
In reserve and guard units, SMP cadets do hold assigned positions, but have no position in the chain of command.
If you've ever been in a doctor's appointment and a medical student was assigned to your doctor, that's about how cadets in CTLT and SMP function. The supervising doctor might ask the medical student to do certain things a doctor would normally do (recommend a prescription, put in sutures, read test or x-ray results), but only with direct physician supervision. Medical students do not do anything on their own authority, and it would be illegal as they are unlicensed. They act only under the auspices of their supervising physician. Normal members of the medical team fall within a strict hierarchy (just like rank). Medical students are not in this hierarchy at all except they answer to doctors and do only what a doctor tells them to, under that doctors supervision. Nurses don't outrank med students or vice-versa.
So fairly similar arrangement as with cadets.
FOOLISH it is for there to be any antagonism between NCOs and cadets, or NCOs and lieutenants. Payback is one reason to avoid it. Simple professionalism is another, Respect the service, respect the service member.
That's analogy to a medical student is just straight up incorrect. Cadets are normally placed in an overstrength officer slot, but can also be a regularly assigned member in up to an O-2 slot. When I was an SMP Cadet I was in a platoon size guard unit. The PL left for BOLC and no other officer was available to fill his position. For five months I was the regularly assigned PL at that unit. I was assigned the unit's O-2 slot, and it was later counted as PL time after I commissioned. I led the unit during AT, an FTX, and 4 convoys, with no officers or warrant officers present. The only thing I was not able to do as a cadet in an officer slot was that I lacked some of the signing authority a lieutenant normally has, so if something needed to be signed that was beyond my authority, I would email it to the Company Commander, who was at a different armory 75 miles away. I had literally only been contracted for about 3 months when this happened, and before contracting I had been a CPL at the same unit.
The E-7 PSG was mad as hell about it the first month and went to the CC and BC about it, and they set him straight and directed him to AR 600-20. A few months later after the best AT the unit had in years, he apologized and shook my hand. This was only a few years ago and nothing has changed since then.
Incorrect. You have to look at national guard and the reserves. Both have an option for Cadets to be apart of a simultaneous membership program. I am a cadet and am military police and drill with them as well. AR 600-20 lists command structure.
That is why cadets dont go to parade rest while talking to NCOs. We only go to attention for officers. Dont take it as a sign of disrespect however. We are officers in training and when we get a chanve at a leadership role with the guidance of the NCOs it will ensure our success as officers.
Most cadets understand and respect the NCOs within their unit. I am acting PL of my platoon because we dont have a 2LT. I work with my leadership and learn from them and they help to shape me to become a good officer.
CDT Vincent – High marks! You sound like you have a good head on your shoulders and as such know who and where you are able to receive the BEST mentorship and hands on experience. It’s cadets like you that become “true” leaders, because you have put your ego in check and will EARN the respect of your troops!
Hooah!!!
Cadet you are not a cadet when in you ng or reserve unit. You know this, you are assigned as whatever rank you have in the guard. Only through a wriiten agreement from the pms tonthe guard commander are allowed to serve as acting LT's
He is actually correct, SMP cadets serve in ARNG units in the rank of “cadet”. They receive paygrade of ~E-5 however they hold a higher position. This does not mean they are to enact on that rank as authority has been given to the person in command of them.
So I suppose we don’t salute appointed Officers either? Interesting because WO1s are appointed by SecDef on behalf of the CinC. They don’t commission until CW2 but I guess they don’t really count as Officers either. Treat the Cadets with respect. The Army isn’t some “pay your dues” ol boys club anymore.
You guys are all discussing how the Army does it.. I’m AF and In Services(Food Svc) i was assigned an Academy Cadet to teach him what i was responsible for as a SSGT. Production NCO(i overseen what the shift leaders do as far as getting production done (preparing the sustenance for the Airmen’s consumptioon in accordsnce with AF Standards… i showed him the Regs and the Cook production logs the leaders (shiftleader, 1st Cook, Baker Supervisor, bskers) follow at various levels of preparinv the Sustenance..
the leadership essentially passed off their job.. but i ythink it is good these future officers learn from those entrusted to prepare the sustenance.. instead of those that haven’t actually been in thr kitchen for a couple years.
Hands on training.. they eill not actually be cooking but learning from hose that do it daily.. The Cadet wr had wrote all of us NCOs that trained him, some. Very nice endorsements. Now by chance he.be in a billet at some hq and psperwork comes in front of him about ration counts for personnel and what the job description calls for for a 3m Senior Cook requisition.. for his order.. what it’s called these days) he’ll be sble to understand better what the job description says. We have other job description s (stores /rations handling.. what that person is responsible for , order for commissary ration/breakdown … The better we helped him to understand the less he has to look for answers…. We can feel confident we did our hob helping train a. Future leader in some position in our AF.
A wise cadet will be mindful of their position. Don’t demand respect earn it. Something I wish I knew 50 years ago.
I agree with you Sir. I am an honorably discharged Veteran of the active Army. Served in the regulars from 1983 to 1985, and from 1987 to 1989. I was an enlisted man and my rank at the time of my discharge in the late Summer of 1989 was Sergeant E5. I was a 13B20-Gunner. Cadets should know that they must earn respect. In fact, based on my experience there are some West Pointers out there who never learned that. During my time in the regulars, I encountered a couple of West Point Grads who, in my opinion had amused contempt for enlisted personnel below the rank of E5. One of these ignorant academy types was my battalion XO at Fort Ord. I respected his rank and expertise, but I detested him otherwise.
I too am an honorably discharged Army Vet from an Army family. Its like my father (retired CW3) taught me; " I don't have to respect you but I HAVE TO RESPECT your rank."
Now, that is a perfect resolution. I practice it for all things because that was my mom golden rule from childhood to yesterday (dementia stole her from me).
It is not just West Point cadets who outrank NCO's. ROTC cadets do too. (Still, there is no need to salute them. A CSM outranks a SPC, but you never see the latter salute the former. )
Its not so much AR, but UCMJ. Officers, commissioned warrant officers, midshipmen, cadets, candidates are all affordedofficer status.
I think the part of the reg people have over looked is "the senior regularly assigned Army Soldier will assume command". Is a cadet a regularly assigned Army Soldier? I think not. The reason you would place cadets above enlisted in the rank chart is because they will be officers. Cadets are still learning and everyone in the unit should help mentor them and show the value of NCOs.
You missed it my good first sergeant so I dutifully call your attention to it. "(3) Senior regularly assigned Army Soldier refers (in order of priority) to officers, WOs, cadets, NCOs, specialists, or privates present for duty unless they are ineligible under paragraphs 2-15 or 2-16." So cadets are included in the definition.
The definition is enhanced further by stating Soldiers "present for duty." The cadet qualifies here too because s/he is obviously present for duty, as assigned. We need not be concerned about the proviso of either 2-15 or 2-16 as each applies to a Soldier under certain sanctions of discipline. Indeed, a cadet assigned as a visitor to a regular unit on active duty would not be under disciplinary sanctions by his training command and institution — if s/he were under sanctions the cadet would be disqualified from visiting. Army command policy is clear the definition of terms.
As for me, while a SNCO would in general be qualified to succeed a LT as platoon leader, any such succession would need to be limited to a short term basis. However, I don't see the wisdom of placing a SNCO in command of a company ahead of a cadet. Yet I would not want a Year 1 WP cadet in charge of a company. It's virtually guaranteed there are at least one or two SNCO in a given company qualified to take a short term command of the company. This would be wiser than placing a WP Year 1 cadet in charge of it.
In respect of ROTC, the R stipulates that only a contracted cadet in ROTC fits the definition I presented. (Contracted ROTC cadets are MS III and MS IV, overwhelmingly and predominantly.) I say these factors because while the SNCO is focused on the lugnut and wheel base the Year 3 cadet is looking at the whole of the Humvee and as much of the landscape around it as he can scope out. In other words, each the SNCO and the cadet would be functioning appropriately.
Imagine that, good ol “Top” didn’t read the entire regulation, only the part that suited his narrative…shocked.
Define "Duty", you know… as opposed to "Education/Training".
The reason "cadets" are even mention in a gentlemans role is due to long ago medieval social customs.
Cadets were sons of the upper class and were, due to social norms, afforded gentlemans status.
Example: In the U.S. Military a Warrant Officer (W-2–W-5) are commissioned but are not gentlemen officers. Warrant Officers are formally addressed as "Mister." A honorific form of address indicating respect but only for officers under the rank of knight.
A (knight) officer is a commissioned officer and formally addressed as "SIR!" indicating superior social status. If married his spouse is always addressed a "Lady so and so."
Thus, I suspect a warrant officer's wife is addressed a "wifady" (wife/lady.) Almost, like her husband, an officer and a lady. Yet, still burdened with the unsocial characteristic of the enlisted class.
So as indicated by mil/regs a 17 year old snot nosed cadet is indeed an enlisted social/moral/intellectual/ and just plain all around great american hero. Superior to a mere cunning, lazy enlisted man. Even if that enlisted man is the Sgt Maj of the Army. Holds the MOH, four Silver Stars, ten combat ribbons, CIB, is airborne qualified and ex special forces. And yes the officer corps views your spouse as just a "wife."
And yet, the UCMJ does hold all commissioned officers, including CW2-CW5, accountable for their behavior, as they are subject to Article 133, Conduct Unbecoming and Officer and Gentlemen. Only W1's, lacking a commission, are excepted from Art. 133.
Strangely enough, the Services expect the exact same behavior as "officers and gentlemen" (and of course ladies) from cadets and midshipmen, as they are also subject to Article 133, even lacking a commission, and some are dismissed from the Service every year for violating Article 133…
Will that is incorrect. WO1s even as “appointed” Officers are subject to all provisions of the UCMJ even art 33. Ask any SJA.
This should not turn into a them vs us type of debate. We are all “us.” I was one of Cohen’s blue to gold mustangs in the 90’s. No one does this better than The Corps. My NCOs treated me with respect while I was a midshipman, but taught me what it meant. It was “advanced pay” so to speak. It would be earned when I became the kind of Officer that he would be honored to serve as right hand to. As SNCOs think of this as an opportunity to shape the Os of the future. No matter what route an O receives his commission by, he will regard his SNCOs and NCOs who trained him with the utmost honor and respect. As corny as this will sound, the feelings related in the film “An Officer and a Gentleman” at the end we’re pretty accurate. A Gunny at 29Palms RTAMS and a Chief at NASA/AMES CA are among my most treasured mentors. I bet they could not even remember my name…
I highly doubt any West Point graduate will magically "see the light" after reading my imput on this discussion. I retired ten years ago as an 11B SNCO with 26 years in service and a star on my CIB. I was at Camp Buckner in 1989 as my Bn (2/502d, 101st ABN) was slated to train yearlings. Somehow, the memo of shifting demographics of new Soldiers within the Infantry never reached West Point so there's a huge disconnect in reality. IQ averages are around 120 for most Grunts and for those that don't track demographics, that's a huge jump from national averages. In my experience we rarely see a decent new officer come out of West Point and it's really sad. We get people whose ideals are from left field and seem to think the Army is their play ground. We always give you a chance before we let you sink your career all on your own. When you focus on things that scare you to death, always remember that those are your fears and we're not concerned with achieving the next rank or a nice review. Good Grunts care less for their next promotion beyond making sure our records are correct. And you'll have to deal with the reality that there are better men out there and you may be in over your head but don't blame others for your shortcomings. We want to mold a new Officer to become a great leader we can always remember but there's a limit to what we're willing to do. And if for one second you think any Infantrymen will ever do something that violates our Constitutional form of government, you've made the worst assumption of your young life. I see that USMA had a proud communist recently graduate, he might as well spit in my face and all other better warriors than myself before me. While in Iraq in 2003-04 we got a batch of 12 west pointer kids and more than half were momma's boys and short of a huge shift in their personality and ideals, they're too far gone in the head to be respectable leaders. Why hasn't a single one of you been taught that humility, respect and honor flows both ways but in different fashions? The ones that get emotional about my post will reply as expected and miss the lesson altogether because they've been hard wired to respond that way. The Army is always evolving but power bitches have always been around, we just don't frag them as we used to. 2LT Eisenhower, he was a 6' 3" tall man who was assigned to our platoon in 1992. His approach to us was simple and he asked lots of questions about how to best kill tanks and he found that each man has their own method of how they like to do things and tactics they like or dislike and for what reasons. As he worked in our platoon, we all quietly covered for him, especially when he got misoriented now and then (analog land nav isn't simple, especially when mounted) after a few months he was squared away and we taught him our secrets and he never betrayed us. The regulations can only go so far in some jobs and situations in our Army and beyond that you need to be resourceful or have friends who are.
I really wish I didn't have to speak this way about you kids but most of you did the West Point thing for power or prestige, both of which are useless to Infantrymen, we care less what college you went to, if you can't think on your feat when round crack by you then you get my men killed. And I declined two Bronze Stars because some senior Officer decided to dispense them for every Officer and Senior NCO in theater! Then again for the same categories who were on rear detachment duties! (I was going through a few operations connected to wound recovery). Here's my advise that will serve you well; always remember this; ASSUMPTIONS ARE THE MOTHER OF ALL FUCK UPS! And get to know your PBO very well! Don't assume a damn thing, if a young NCO or Soldier tells you he "thinks" the vehicle is ready or has a full tank of fuel, hand him a long stick, send him back to the Motor Pool, have him put the stick into the fuel tank and bring back said stick with fuel on it, that way both of you will now KNOW that the vehicle is fueled. Tell the NCO's that you don't want to seem like a dick that you're being so picky on things, you're just building trust so later you know who's good to go and what each of our strengths are and that goes for the young LT as well (that's called humility and the men will understand because it's fair).
Infantry Veterans/Retirees cluster together on various online formats and we're very concerned what direction things are going and it has nothing to do with President Trump, I've seen what a prelude to war is twice in my lifetime and I'm seeing another one but in a slower manner. Most of us own our own firearms and body armor because we assume nothing but pray for the best. We're also the one demographic that gives the socialist/communists nightmares because they know they can't take us head on in any manner so they go through the younger people to reach their aims. If you're not an Infantry Officer then to us you're an NPC because you lack skills and experience. If you think a fellow West Point graduate is a great leader, see how she/he behaves after having a soldier vaporized by an RPG in front of him. And if you think islam is a warm and fuzzy religion, you're way off! Always seek the minority view of any situation or story! It's often hard to find but its often the real truth on a subject especially if it's being spoon fed to you in briefs and media.
Be safe out there, use the "recon by fire" method if probing a road and drop to the ground when a frag is near you, the explosion goes up and away. And keep your mouth open and eyes covered with your hands when it or any other explosion goes off near you. I'm laughing as I remember when our sniper team took out 16 combatants at one road intersection in Falujah, Iraqi's have an average IQ of 70 so they aren't the brightest candle on the cake, lol. They always forgot to take the safety bail/pin out of the RPG fuze and the round would just bounce off our Bradleys, lol. Then we'd mow the guy down with an M4. Speed is your friend in a convoy, never drive slower than the rest of the civilian traffic, that way when a bad guy is trying to catch up to your convoy, he sticks out big time and the rear vehicle can easily engage him. In 2003 we never went slower than 55, usually 60 MPH and we never lost anyone. That one NCO who doesn't give a crap about you is the one you should be talking to.
Hey brother. Word of advice, if you want to write an op-Ed then you should submit it for publication. Nobody reads your comments past the first four lines.
Everybody read it. Long story short: Years of hands-on experience trumps reading an instruction manual, This applies in every situation and every single time. Coming straight out of a college (any college) prepares you for exactly nothing. What comes after is when the real learning begins.
Pro-Tip: Don't make a blog post, offer a comment section, then expect not to be schooled by your elders, especially when taking a condescending tone. Life 101.
Hope this was brief enough for you or TL:DR? Your attitude will get you relegated to a Quonset hut in BFE.
As a mom of a cadet thank you! Am forwarding this to my son. He has much humility and respect for all who serve and served so he will appreciate your words
A very interesting thread. A little ancient cadet history for anyone interested. I was an Air Force Aviation Cadet during the late 1950's. Requirements for a USAF Aviation Cadet at the time were two years of college and passing scores on a series of IQ and skills tests such as mathematics, logic, and spatial relations. At the time the pipeline for commissioned officers in the Air Force was ROTC, OCS, Aviation Cadets, and the new USAF Academy whose first class graduated circa 1958. While the other sources trained and commissioned officers for all USAF career fields, the Aviation Cadet Corps produced only pilots and navigators. We were enlisted in the Air Force for a two year enlistment. Aviation Cadet training was 15 months. The two year enlistment term allowed for cadets who had to temporarily halt training because of illness or injury. The first three months were preflight training at Lackland AFB where we were taught basic military skills such as customs and courtesies, UCMJ, drill, Air Force history, parachute training, confidence course, and firearms training. During cadet training we were paid at the rate of an E5. Upon completion of preflight we went to flight school. Pilot and navigator cadets went to different flight schools. In flight school cadets qualified for flight pay in addition to their regular pay. In those days once a month you went before the pay officer and received your pay in cash. Upon the successful completion of flight school cadets received their flight wings and were commissioned as second lieutenants and incured an additional four year service commitment. Both preflight and flight school were run under the traditional cadet model of upperclass and lowerclass where upperclassmen were responsible for much of the military training and discipline of the lowerclassmen. Interestingly, when a graduating cadet received his commission, (there were no females in the cadet corps in those days), his commission was backdated 15 months to the date he entered the cadet program, giving him a lead on promotion to first lieutenant. Regarding saluting courtesy in the cadet corps. Cadets saluted officers of all United States uniformed services. Cadets were not entitled to receive salutes from enlisted personnel. Within the cadet corps there was a rank structure and cadets saluted other cadets with rank above theirs. Interestingly, one weekend I had a pass and visited a college friend at a nearby naval base where he was undergoing Navy Aviation Cadet training. I was surprised at the gate when I was saluted by the gate personnel. I was further saluted by all enlisted personnel I encountered on base. My friend confirmed that Navy Aviation Cadets rated salutes by enlisted personnel, at least they did at that time. The Air Force Aviation Cadet program was fazed out during the mid 1960's as the Air Force Academy became the primary source of flight rated officers.
Jesus….. Some of the comments left in this thread have really let me down. Other than those few, I feel as though the future is bright. I thought this is a very well written article. Before anyone attacks me, I am a prior Army SSG who is now a MSIV Cadet (Active duty and Branched). I let crap roll off of my back, but when I attended Fort Knox this last summer there were way too many NCOs who had a big chip on their shoulder. It was never the SNCOs, it was always a SSG, SGT, or junior enlisted Soldier disrespecting these cadets (myself included). Every single SNCO I've come in contact with in ROTC has developed me as an Officer. They've shown great patience, respected my process, and I am grateful for these SFCs, MSGs, and SGMs. *Back to the story: At first, I let things go and decided someone had to be tough on these kids, but after a while, I couldn't let it roll on. I found myself going toe to toe with these junior NCOs and enlisted, but not to destroy their souls (as the NCO in me wanted to do so badly) but to talk to them and help them understand that if you treat these cadets like crap, it will be returned 10 fold in a year when they commission, hate NCOs, and are their raters. They won't forget what you've shown them and they will resent you. I believe my words only carried weight because I've already been in the Army for 10 years and the Senior cadre knew this (I didn't get in any trouble). That just goes to show that the regular cadets get crapped on and they can't change it. I've seen this relationship play out in the Army. I had a CO at one point who absolutely had a genuine dislike for NCOs and believed them to be useless. It made it very difficult to operate as an NCO under his command.
Some points I wanted to make sure I hit are:
-No, you don't have to call them sir/ma'am or salute them, but you absolutely should show them the respect you would like to receive.
-Mentor these young cadets so that they can grow into the Officers that will leverage all the outstanding traits of the NCO Corps.
-If you are a Soldier and you are still carrying around the trash attitude of the "good ole' days", it is most likely time for you to go. Things are changing around you and you're failing to adapt.
-If you are a cadet and you don't see the value of picking the brain of an NCO (CPL to SGM), then you will most likely be doing your time and moving on. The key to success in your career is understanding the strengths and weaknesses of your key players AKA your subordinate leaders and junior Soldiers. They are everywhere and plugged into everything. Allow them to lead you too! You can't lead if you don't know how to follow.
– Without our outstanding NCO Corps counterparts, there would be no outstanding officers.
Enough of my rant! I hope this sheds some light on things. I'm not a regular progression cadet so this is a better look at the situation.
A little background: I received my commission as a 2LT in May 1987 after spending two years in the SMP where I was enrolled as a senior ROTC Cadet (MSIII and MSIV) while serving simultaneously in a National Guard Unit. When I contracted under the SMP I was administratively promoted to the rank and pay grade of E-5 ( I had served two years previously in the Army Reserve as a junior enlisted 11B). I wore the Cadet rank insignia of 2LT. As that was a long time ago, my memories of the experience were that it was the best and the worst of both worlds. From the enlisted perspective, while drilling with my Guard unit, there was confusion as to where exactly Cadets fit in to the scheme of things. From the junior officer perspective we were seen as coffee and errand boys. From the senior officer perspective we were largely ignored. The one group that actually gave us respect and tried to help and mentor us were the senior NCOs. For lack of official guidance I was assigned as an assistant platoon leader in an Armored Cavalry Company and my platoon sergeant was a former Navy Seal with combat tours in Vietnam (along with other unmentionable places during that conflict). To this day I credit a lot of the success I had when I went on active duty after I graduated to this great NCO. Sure I went through some hazing ( “Sir, could you go to the motor pool and ask the motor sergeant for a left thermal heat reticle calibration tool?” – I was sent all over the place until I finally caught on.) but after I had earned my keep so to speak he spent a lot of time teaching and mentoring this Dot head and when I was commissioned he took time off from his civilian job to come to the commissioning ceremony to congratulate me. I felt honored to have him there. So I think he had it right. As others have commented, folks should remember that those Cadets that you give a hard time to will in a short time become those officers that are in charge of writing your NCOERs never mind the fact that they also will be your leaders when deployed in a combat zone ( I served in the 1st Cav Div during Desert Shield and Storm), in other words garbage in equals garbage out. As an humorous aside, earlier I mentioned that the junior officers in my reserve unit treated cadets as little more than errand boys. I have to say that I got a little bit of vindication when I went back to obtain some records from my old guard unit. I was now an active duty Captain with a right shoulder patch ( a big deal in those days ) and a couple of combat medals on my chest ( not bragging but including because of the story ). It was priceless to see the look of surprise on my former XO’s face when I walked into my old unit on a drill weekend. Due to the nature of promotions in the Guard at the time, he was still serving as the XO and was still a 1st LT. when I walked in wearing my Class A’s. I have to admit that when he asked what I needed I probably got a little pleasure by responding: “a cup of coffee. Cream only. And make it quick Lieutenant”. Now it was said in good humor. And taken that way. But I’m sure he felt stung just a little bit. Anyway. Point is that one never knows what lies down the road so I try to treat everyone with respect regardless of their rank or position.
Haha…. ok Cadet, go right ahead. Just try it.
I was assigned to the 25th ID in 1972. My first platoon leader was OCS, my other two were USMA. I don't mean to take anything away from the Point but my first platoon leader was the finest officer I ever served under.
I really liked the story and learned something as well having been a former SMP Cadet before I commissioned. As a CDT, I was generally treated pretty well at my unit, this could have been because I was Mustang Officer in training and a former NCO, and that my CO was part of the cadre at Western Illinois, so she made it a point to assign me to a vacant officer position, in this case kind of a huge assignment as the Maintenance PLT LDR at a MED Truck CO, whereas most units don’t even know what to do with a CDT. I think that it would be a huge step in the right direction for the ROTC BNs to send their CDTs to their gaining units with an LOI/MOU pinned to their chest (I’m sure ROTC has probably published guidance along those lines, but I’ve never seen it) so that those commanders will have some idea what to do with those CDTs when they get there. In my case I was lucky and had a CO who was ROTC cadre and knew what to do with me. It can be a very valuable and rewarding experience if done right and an unfortunate waste of time for the CDT and unit if it’s not.
This article reminded me of something that raised a question for me after I received my commission and that had to do with LTs saluting each other. So there I was no shot, at my first unit on JBLM, WA as a 2LT and I thought that based on what I was taught that you salute all superior officers. I had another LT in one of the other shops stop me almost with tears in his eyes that I had just salutes 2 other 1LTs on the way into the building and while laughing explained me to that LTs did not salute each other. Thought about it and stored it away and drove on. I never saluted another LT after that as an LT. I never got gigged for not saluting another LT, so I didn’t think much of it. Hell, we even had SGMs who wouldn’t butter bars and 1LTs, unless you earned it by being high speed and they knew it.
Is anyone able to give me a solid answer to this question? I wondered about it at the time and this reminded me of it, is this more of like a courtesy thing where Warrants don’t salute each other and shake hands instead?
My Drill Sargeant after our last 12 mile road, reminded all of us that until the graduation ceremony and recite the enlistment oath only the will we officially be soldiers. So let me get this straight a probably well connect cadet who memorize info given to them as well as staying nice and tidy, as yet to graduate or earn a degree yet some how thinks that they are officers. We had a young know it all LT around the COMS tent he starts looking around and I see him messing with the ground strap the future leader of our troops disconnected it. A the this leader our soldiers says to me that I did not ground the equipment right. A straight up lie from a boy who thinks book smarts makes him am expert in my mos. Luckily, my trusty CWO officer witness this kid who likes to give orders about something he knows nothing about and showing his outstanding example of a true and morale officer. My CWO put him in his place and ask what would this cadet' commanding officer would think of his conduct and told him to leave. So our government invested thousands on a lying, dishonest, ill-informed, and immature man child to lead others. Great investment. I just wished the device had been turned on when he was messing with the ground strap. You see there is a important reason that the strap be properly secured to the six foot ground rod driven into the ground. I the DC power device safe from accidental shock. It would have sent enough juice thru the not yet graduate nor commissioned idiots heart to stop. The invested money for the cadet wasted. Mainly because I do belive the new generation of officers are a bunch of participation trophy recieving, never held accountable, privileged, idiots who can't handle that all that academy training and degree mean jack shit but to stroke their since of superiority over others. So glad I longer serve. I do not cater to idiots and refuse to acknowledge someone that does not even respect the rank they expect their subordinates to respect. You are not a leader because you graduated from an academy. More than likely you are just privileged. Seems like the worst kind of leader to have
Rrrrr matey, were be that 3rd Lieutenant. Shiver me timbers he pooped on the deck. Yes I have seen a misguided ROTC cadet DEMAND a salute from an E-9 once. Boy if it wasn't entertainment at its best.
It's hilarious when reality trumps the entitlement issues of a newly hatched fetus. Every. single time.
In the military, XO refers to a second-in-command officer, or more generally, an executive officer.The XO typically reports to the commanding officer, who also goes by the names “the first lieutenant” and “the number one”. Sometimes, XO is a way of calling “the commander” or a head of a department in the organization.
That sounds like a fun and challenging job. Working as a deputy or person number 2 is always a difficult task. But usually, you're the one doing most of the work. So you are always busy and have something to do.
can a civilian refuse to make a General of any part of the forces coffee