Nearly two years have passed since Russia invaded Ukraine. In the lead-up to the war, European states largely agreed on the importance of supporting Russia, but disagreed about the optimal form—and scale—of that support. That changed almost entirely when Russian forces launched their invasion. Indeed, much has been made of the fact that Russian President Vladimir Putin has united Europe more effectively than virtually any European leader has managed to do in years. The NATO alliance was also reinvigorated, with trans-Atlantic relations characterized by a sense of cohesion rarely achieved in recent history. But what is the state of those relations now? And where does European defense policy stand after two years of war?

This episode of the Irregular Warfare Podcast examines those questions. To do so, hosts Laura Jones and Louis Tobergte are joined by two guests. Ravi Agrawal is the editor-in-chief of Foreign Policy and the host of FP Live, the magazine’s video channel and podcast. Before joining Foreign Policy, he spent more than a decade at CNN. And retired Lieutenant General Ben Hodges is the former commanding general of US Army Europe and currently the senior advisor to Human Rights First, a nonprofit, nonpartisan international human rights organization. Prior to this, he held the Pershing Chair in Strategic Studies at the Center for European Policy Analysis. He is coauthor of the book Future War and the Defence of Europe.

You can listen to the full episode below, or find it on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, TuneIn, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Be sure to subscribe so you don’t miss an episode!

Image credit: NATO